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Fr. They would all say: the gospel of John and the epistle. Instead of avoiding or invalidating problem passages out of discomfort, Fr. Fr. Andrew: Yeah, theyre now participating in the eschatological Day of Atonement. The more I learned about scripture, the more I felt the need for additional guidance on both the holy messages and the contextsculture, history, languages, geography, etc. Stephen: Doesnt everyone? Andrew: [Laughter] That we always get! What do we need this for? And so when the lots are cast, one of these two goats is designated as the goat for Yahweh, and the other goat is designated as the goat for Azazel. Father Dr. Stephen De Young traces the lineage of Orthodox Christianity back to the faith and witness of the apostles, which was rooted in a first-century Jewish worldview. The Religion of the Apostles presents the Orthodox Christian Church of today as a continuation of the religious life of the . Andrew Stephen Damick and Fr. Stephen: Ruined, yeah. Fr. Fr. Andrew: Yeah, the GOATiest. Stephen: And so Antiochus IV EpiphanesEpiphanes meant he was the manifestation of a god on earth. Fr. Fr. The killing of this goat is not ritualized in any way. Fr. Fr. All right, well, lets just kind of mop up now. Fr. So the first question I mean, Ill start by saying I havent read the book of Leviticus, so excuse my ignorance on this, but I have read actually, after hearing the last podcast you guys did, I was doing a little bit of reading, and I read that the priest would lay hands on both goats, like on the goat for Yahweh as well as that Is that true, or would they not lay hands on the goat for Yahweh? What does it mean? So the first covering that happens, the reason this is done on this day, as weve mentioned in previous episodes, is that this is the day that Yahweh chose to appear visibly in the holy of holies. Stephen: Right, so as I mentioned, all of our earliest sort of interpreters within the Jewish world who talk about Azazel have him as this being, this actual demonic being, and the most prominent places where hes discussed in terms of what Second Temple literature are focusing on are 1 Enoch, whats called 2 Enoch or Slavonic Enoch, and the Apocalypse of Abraham. Andrew: No, I dont think so, but yeah [Laughter] Hello, all of you Jonathan Pageau fans out there. Stephen: Sin leaves a taint, not just on us. Fr. Andrew: Exactly. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown" (Genesis 6:1-4)-period (keep the "reliably" qualifier in mind). So weve got: I go out to my sheep. Wright (Protestant) and Brant Pitre (Catholic) and others should give the Orthodox pause before too quickly assuming these types of historical considerations automatically vindicate the claims of Eastern Orthodox ecclesiology. The first is that Orthodox Christianity had to interact with heresies, resulting in various doctrinal formulas such as Trinitarian doctrine. Andrew: Yeah, so someone comes in: So what did you do, pal? [Laughter], Fr. Fr. And then as you go out to the holy place and then to where the Levites are dwellingthe Levites and the priests have to maintain this higher level of discipline and holinessand then you get to the Israelites, who have to do this even higher level than the nations. A dissertation submitted to the faculty of the School of Graduate Studies, Hebrew Union College - Jewish Institute of Religion (2009) . Is the ecclesial body of Eastern Orthodoxy the most orthodox (faithful to the apostles), or is the most faithfulness to orthodoxy perhaps found in a Protestant denomination, or maybe Roman Catholicism? Father Stephen De Young's comments on political converts We had the Sunday of the Last Judgment, so weve had goats on our minds. Stephen: And finally, be sure to go to ancientfaith.com/support and help make sure we and lots of other AFR podcasters stay on the air. Stephen De Young, I felt I had finally come home. Academia.edu no longer supports Internet Explorer. Fr. And I looked this up: what is the earliest use of this word? Two ancient sites, the Pergamon Altar in Berlin, as well as Rujum el-Hiri in the Golan Heights in Israel, will be included to demonstrate the possibility that these fallen ones may be loosed upon mankind during the time of the Time of Jacobs Trouble on earth. Stephen dismantles, and one very dear to my heart. Fr. Amazon.com: Stephen De Young: books, biography, latest update Theres a text variant there as to whether it says monon or monn. But the basic idea is that, as Leviticus says elsewhere, that blood is life, the blood of an animal is its life, so sin, this taint of sin and corruption, is death. Fr. Well, okay, so theres a little bit of backstory here, and again, Luke, using this detail about Christ being on the road to Emmaushes actually on the road to Emmaus, but everyone knows what Emmaus is famous for. Fr. Stephen: And consecrate them as sacred space. There are also some folks who want to suggest that Azazel isnt a being. So the Torah and its rituals, including the Day of Atonement, cant be an end in themselves. Strictly speaking, thats not Christianity; its Gnosticism. Stephen: But due to the frequency of the show, is it not actually Goat Fortnight? . Andrew: Yeah, Im not into that kind of thing at all. Fr. You take it back.. Andrew in an outline group connected to the podcast group. Hes not sacrificed to anybody. Fr. Fr. So I mention all that because, as we read Scripture more and as we live the Christian life more, if we understand what it is that Christ is doing and how the Scripture tells us what hes doing, then that gives meaning to so much of our lives. Fr. Dan: Yeah, the second question was: What was it about their understanding of the goats blood that was understood to have a cleansing or sanctifying effect over the various parts of the holy of holies and the Temple that you guys discussed? Fr. Okay, sono, its good. That makes perfect sense. I always wanted to better understand it. I have this crazy new doctrine of God I want everyone to follow me on. But, yeah, theres this reference in 1 John 3:12, which makes reference of Cain being of the wicked one, who murders his brother. Fr. In a passage drawing on his readers experiences of Jewish and of pagan ritual sacrifice, St. Paul emphasizes the continuity of the Holy Eucharist with these familiar, though now superseded, practices. Andrew: All right, well, welcome back to the third half of The Lord of Spirits. Stephen: This idea of, Hey, maybe the serpent in Eden was telling the truth. Since I have always wanted to understand ancient texts through the lens of their original context, I have taken a keen interest in Judaism. Stephen: When a pe gets doubled, it gets pronounced like a P instead of an F. Thats why its usually written with two Ps. Im Fr. Fr. This kind of thing is fun, and it can be very easy, when exposed to theology, especially theology of this kind, thats trying to explain how everything works and how everything fits together and see things from Gods perspective, to approach our Christian life from that perspective, that its about me figuring things out; its about me piecing things together: its about this intellectual construct that I want to form in my mind, where I have the perfect theology and I understand everything. Fr. That might sound familiar to some folks who have read the book of Revelation, because this is exactly what happens to the dragon: hes seized by an angel, hes bound, hes thrown into a pit, hes kept there, and then on the last day hes released briefly and then thrown into the lake of fire. [Laughter] How many times have we said now: The killing is not ritualized in any way? Stephen: And without going down the whole rabbit-trail of when you can and cant touch the ark, because thats a whole separate thing. Stephen De Young wraps up Chapter 5 of Romans. Not so great for the goat, but it keeps that from happening, which would be a very awkward moment. Fr. Its not anti-Semitic. Bible Studies - Saint George Orthodox Christian Cathedral Stephen De Young concludes Revelation, Chapter 9. Enter the email address you signed up with and we'll email you a reset link. Get that goat out of here. Fr. Its not about some abstract concept or mechanism of salvation; its about the ritual that everyone that the people receiving this Gospel would have known, or, if they were coming in from the nations, they would have been told about this: it was part of their inheritance now, because theyre becoming part of Israel. Stephen: Yeah. Stephen: So, yeah, Im actually not answering your question. As if. Andrew: Yeah, I mean, how do they fish him out? [Laughter] But theres literally a text variant there. Stephen: 1 Maccabees talks about the Battle of Emmaus. It not only leaves that reside and that taint within us, but within the people around us and in the actual, physical creation itself. Okay, now we get to talk about one of my favorite placesEmmaus! When we say the Johannine literature, were saying St. Johns gospel, but also 1, 2, and 3 John, and the Apocalypse, the book of Revelation: it is found in all of this. Andrew: I mean, I love that word. Fr. Stephen: Right, now, a couple of key things there. So this sort of has positive connotations. This review considers the claims and notes some basic yet fundamental level issues. Stephen: Yeah, it was Antiochus IV Epiphanes. And then the whole idea, not just in general terms but in its specifics, is picked up wholesale by St. John the Evangelist in the Johannine literature. I dont know. Heidelberg Journal of Religions on the Internet, Rebuttal to Dr. Michael Heisers All I Want for Christmas is Another Flawed Nephilim Rebuttal, Ancient Tales of Giants from Qumran and Turfan Contexts, Traditions, and Infl uences, A Brief Survey of the Pre-flood and Post-flood Origins of the Nephilim, Ninurta-Nimrod, Son of Enlil-Satan, the First Post-Flood Hybrid, The Origin of Evil and the End of the World, Incidental Biblical Exegesis in the Qumran Scrolls and its Importance for Study of the Second Temple Period, Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible, Of Demigods and the Deluge: Toward an Interpretation of Genesis 6:1-4. Andrew Stephen Damick finish their three-part series on sacrifice. You know what Im saying? I am coming to understand that the Orthodox view is the correct one. The idea of aliens, giants and mysterious monolithic structures has become popularized. Stephen: Yeah, which brings it to I give and I take away, and I gave you your OED, Fr. How does God make it happen?. And a very well-known biblical scholar and a very good biblical scholar, Simon Gathercole, who wrote the magisterial material on the Gospel of Thomas, for example, amongst many other great things, did a book a few years ago on atonement, trying to defend the particular atonement theory of penal substitutionary atonement. You get these atonement theories that are then theories of how it works from Gods end; how God does it. We cannot really begin considering "giants" unless and until we define that vague, genetic, subjective term (and I can think of 5-6 definitions). And so, start with a verse near and dear to my heart, because I spent a chunk of my life with it, and thats 1 John 2:2. Stephen: Right, and taken outside the camp. Stephen: through our sin, that actually changes us. Stephen: Or even mercy-seat bands, if we want to be really old school. Its everybodys sins. Almost from the beginning of the book, Fr. So Luke 24, you get Christ on the road to Emmaus. At first, it appears the book will address these questions, for Fr. Now that dome is expanded to encompass the whole world, because Christnot only does he not just send the stuff back to Azazel, he gets rid of Azazel. Fr. Also considered is the possibility that the Biblical Nimrod, a descendant of Ham, was the Sumerian king Gilgamesh, and that he also was genetically Nephilim. [Laughter] But, yeah, okay, so to wrap up, then, just some final thoughts. The Religion of the Apostles: Orthodox Christianity in the First Century Andrew: Yeah, what is it about that blood that actually has that purifying effect? Fr. Fr. Fr. Fr. We experience them in worship, we experience them in our interactions with other people when we show the love of God to them, we experience them in the peace we receive from God, in the actual forgiveness and healing we receive for our actual sins on a day-to-day basis. Okay, Im just trying to get better like Im doing a diet, a spiritual diet.. Im just going to say that at the outset. Fr. The reality is more like what we were talking about tonight that we see unfold in the Scriptures with atonement and everything else, that there are these cosmic realities of spiritual warfare, of Christ defeating the powers of evil, of Christ setting us free and purifying us, making us holy and setting us apart and bringing us into his kingdom; that are cosmic realities that each of us has been given the gift of being able to participate in, in time. Romans Chapter 11 - The Whole Counsel of God - Ancient Faith Sorry. Does it have anything to do with suffering or punishment? Andrew: Yeah, and theres this distinction, then, that is made I mean, this comes in the creation, where youve got the whole sort of world of chaos versus the ordered space that God sets up. The answer, according to Fr. It has become fashionable within American Eastern Orthodox convert culture to deny that the Orthodox believe in substitutionary atonement. Fr. So some people will try to will want to translate Azazel, instead of seeing it as a name, as a proper name, will want to translate it as something like the goat who goes away. This is where scapegoat comes from, because scape- like escape. Escape is go away: the goat that goes away. Stephen: John 17, 18, and 19 also talks about this same idea, where Christthis is in the contextthis is part of the long reading on Holy Thursday eveningwhere Christ isthis is sometimes referred to as Christs high priestly prayer, appropriately enoughand Christ says in verses 18 and 19, As you sent me into the world, I have also sent them into the world, and for their sakes, I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth. And of course the truth in St. Johns gospel is Christ himself. I dont know. Stephen: In fact, its canonically forbidden to bring livestock into the church. Great Value. Stephen: Right, we have to have it perfect, because hes going to appear, and if he appears and its imperfect, then this is going to get bad for us, for Israel. Well, like I said, it is Goat Week, and here at Goat Week weve got you covered. Fr. And so then, logically enough, when you find this in its noun formthese same roots are used for both verbs and nouns and also for adjectiveswhen its a noun it means a cover or a covering. Stephen, where is that word from? It is good. Fathers Andrew Stephen Damick and Stephen De Young focus on enchantment in creation, the union of the seen and unseen as made by God and experienced by mankind throughout history. You guys know, right? Fr. He holds a PhD in Biblical Studies from Amridge University. Why does this need to be added on? Fr. Stephen De Young begins the discussion of Revelation, Chapter 12. Stephen: Yeah, I mean you may have to deal with this mercy-seat stuff, but now you know how that works, so youre all set for Leviticus. For anyone who leaves the Orthodox faith for Protestantism, this becomes an easy issue to take up and throw stones back at the Orthodox Church. ), Ancient Tales of Giants from Qurman and Turfan: Contexts, Traditions, and Influences (Tbingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2016), The Landscape of Memory: Giants and the Conquest of Canaan. Consequently, Christianity has more continuity with the religion practiced by the Pharisees than what we know of today as Judaism.. When he says that Christs blood is going to be upon them and upon their children, thats a blessing! Im going to give you this job, so look this up, Richard. Stephen De Young discusses verses 19 and 20 of Galatians, Chapter 3. Fr. Stephen De Young, and Ancient Faith Ministries, Fr. Andrew: Yeah, so we have in our notesbecause everyone loves it when we read from Enochic literature1 Enoch 10:8. This goat, we dont know nothing. It becomes this mechanism that I sort of get benefited that benefits me, rather than something that I ritually participate in. Fr. Mike Schmitz), Let's Read the Gospels with Annie F. Downs, Fr. Fr. St. Paul the Mystic - The Whole Counsel Blog Fr. Is it because its being offered to God? This translation introduced a Jewish flavor into the text to make the Bible more Messianic. Later on in life Ive participated in everything from Passover Seders to Messianic services in an attempt to discover the Jewish roots of my faith. I know people are being moved to sympathy for the goat in all this. Sorry, I will not get tired. I think weve seen tonight how a lot of discussions of atonement are based on reading backwards, so you start with a developed theological idea, read it back into the New Testament, and then from there back into the Old Testament, instead of what we hopefully did with reasonable success tonight, which is start in the Old Testament and read forward and see how things unfold. Fr. And theres the figure of the Angel of the Lord as the one whos going to do this; hes going to be the high priest. Fr. Stephen: And its not just sort of chaos in the sense of disorder. I have two good friends who left the Orthodox church and now refer me to the Old Testament to clinch some version of the following argument: See, substitutionary atonement is real, so the Orthodox are actually heterodox when they deny this. Well folks, the Orthodox Church does teach substitutionary atonement, and if you dont believe me, read chapter 7 of The Religion of the Apostles. I have all these details from the Day of Atonement ritual, and Im just going to ascribe that to whats happening with Christ. I will not. Fr. Dan: Yeah, yeah, thats really helpful. Stephen: Thats a reference you probably didnt get, but you laughed anyway. And so it intrudes into the camp or into Israel or into sort of a renewed anti-typal Eden. Fr. Fr. Andrew: Yeah, because if theres anything God does not want you to do, its worship anything, anything else. Fr. Andrew: Its a response. Sorry, everybody. Now, while "the psychological characteristics of the Nephilim are not specifically described in the Bible" neither is that they "had distinct physical characteristics of large size and great strength" nor that they were "generally pictured as being very proud, belligerent, sexually aggressive, and prone to conflicttall, strong, and belligerentphysically intimidatingNephilic characteristics of height, musculature, and psychopathology." Fr. Fr. Stephen De Young concludes St. Paul's letter to the Galatians, by discussing chapters 5 and 6. (more), Descending to Ascend: Prayer as Initiation Into Divine Judgment in the, Mind the Gap: First Principles and Popular Theology, Participants in the Altar: in I Corinthians 10:14-22, Energies of the Trinity: The Energies as Tripersonal Communion in Gregory Palamas, V. S. Soloviev and the Russian Roots of Personalism. So Ill take the heat for that one. Furthermore, I will attempt to explicate theories on the origin of evil and provide the verses that were utilized to support these theories. Fr. Stephen: Right. He preferred the terminology for the sacrament of the Lords Supper in order to present it as a meal,1 which he saw as standing in sharp contrast to the sacrificial conception.2 While Calvin himself consistently maintained that the Eucharist represented a real sacramental communion in the body and blood of Christ, this disassociation of sacrament and sacrifice led much of later Protestantism to reject even the sacramentality of the rite. Stephen: Yeah, weve covered a lot, and a lot of big stuff, so this one is kind of the hardest button to button. What we want is not just to understand salvation but to experience salvation, and understanding the cosmic realities and how we come to participate [in] them, ritually and every other way, is the way that that experience becomes real to us. Andrew: Yeah, because doesnt the name literally mean have something to do with goats? Stephen: He had to purify himself before he could come back into the camp. But in terms of using the term and talking about it as a concept, 1 John is the place. So cool! So where does that word? because I know the Protestants like to interpret that as shifting their sins onto the animal so that it works with their penal substitution model. Fr. Fr. Fr. Stephen: Right, they have to be GOAT goats. Andrew: Indeed. But we have As we talked about last time, the sin-offerings that are being offered every day are not transactional. But if we understand it as covering, which is the perfect word, because were about to talk about what this actually does, but the concept is based on this idea that there is sacred space that has been set aside for the holiness of God to be present there with the people, but that the peoples sins interfere with that, that they actually stain the place. the notoriously difficult Gen. 6:1-4 (Stuckenbruck 355). But within this context of atonement, that Christ assumes the whole human experience, and therefore heals it all. Stephen: Well, he actuallyI think youre mixing him with Pompey, the Roman general, Fr. Theyre claiming some kind of economic theory of atonement here! Yeah, no.
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